A Set of Pictures

[Ray Ford]

I saw an interesting set of four game camera pictures the other day.

[Bill]

So do we get to see them?

What was on the pics?

[Ray Ford]

Bill and Powder,
Probably should not have made that post since I do not permission to say anymore than I did.  If I get permission to say more, I will.  Sorry, but....

[Bill]

I can already guess without him saying. I've seen a series from the "likely source" before. 

[#59]

Further analysis revealed a "hunter" that was "trespassing".

[Bill]

I think that qualifies as a POACHER not a hunter. 

[Ray Ford]

"Poaching?"
"Trespassing?"

I understood, for many years, that trespassing was going into/onto someone's property without permission; however, when I did my CLEET training for an armed security guard license, I was told that a person is not trespassing until he/she is asked to leave and refuses.  I was also taught that the use of deadly force to protect property is illegal.  Deadly force can only be used, without fear of legal consequences, when the person using the deadly force has a reasonable expectation of bodily harm to himself or to a member of his family.  (In Oklahoma, their is one law that is purposefully vague about protection of children--vague enough to allow the protection of someone else's children.)  It is the case, I think, that, if a person comes onto another person's property, and if he refuses to leave when asked, he is tresspassing, but he can not be shot or physically harmed--if he is not threatening bodily harm.  The owner's recourse is to call the proper law enforcement agency and let them handle the matter.

My understanding of poaching is actually taking, or possibly attempting to take, game illegally.

I am aware of an instance where a land owner discovered two boys who had killed two does--in season and with tags--on his posted farm.  He held the two boys, with their deer and guns, until the game ranger/conservation officer arrived.  Had the two boys simply walked away without threatening any harm to the land owner, and had he shot them, he probably would have faced a homicide charge.

We have a law in Oklahoma that allows a person to shoot someone entering their home.  But if that person is an unarmed 10-year-old, you better not.  We have another law, I believe, that states that a person can stand his ground--that a person is not legally required to attempt to retreat from a threat.  But, anytime deadly force is used, the circumstances need to be clear and convincing!!!

Those signs that say, "Trespassers will be shot; survivors prsecuted!" are an exercise in stupid machoism.
(Did I spell that last word correctly?)

[pastorp]

Ray, laws vary from state to state, so blanket statements may not be true everywhere.   In Alaska, you can use deadly force to protect your property if the loss of that property would put you in a situation that would be life threating.

It's big country up here with terrible weather at times, and the loss of your food or equipment could cost you your life.  Our state laws recognize these special circumstances.

[Bill]

It is my understanding that in Texas and one other state which I do not recall which one it is that you can use deadly force to protect your property without regard to danger to life. Not many places such is allowed however.

Here in Bama we have a Castle Doctrine law based at least roughly on the Florida format as they were the first to pass such laws. We are not required to retreat from any place we are legally able to be meaning on the street, in a store, etc not just at home. Use of deadly force is allowed according to my understanding so long as we feel we are in danger or that someone else is.

I'd sure not wanna be in the court battle that likely is gonna take place after a shooting tho just cuz the law allows it. I don't wish to predict what actions I'd take as I think circumstances must dictate what action one will or should take but I'd wanna be pretty danged sure I felt me or a family member was in serious danger to pull the trigger. I'd not rule out doing so to protect a person I don't know but when ya get into those situations how do you make sure which is really the bad guy? That's a kinda tricky legal matter I'd prefer to avoid.

[Ray Ford]

...a kinda tricky legal matter I'd prefer to avoid.

These are key words in Bill's post.  Is getting to shot someone who is stealing a chicken out of your coop worth the thousands and thousands of dollars that you might have to spend to get out of the resulting legal mess?  And is that chicken worth a human life?  And have you ever stole a chicken yourself?

I may have posted about this before.  A member of a church that I pastored awoke one night and looked out of his upstairs window.  An area thief was loading his riding mower into a pickup.  He juerked his pants on and ran down the stairs with his .22 rifle.  The pickup was pulling off as he exited his house.  He jumped in his vehicle, caught up with the thief, and shoot his tires down.  He then held the thief at gun point until law enforcement officers arrived.  He never shot at the guy, but pointing a loaded weapon at someone, in Oklahoma, is, I believe a felony. 

The last I heard, the thief was uncharged, but he was defending himself against an assault with a deadly weapon charge.  I was appalled by this turn of events, but very few jurisdictions condone taking the law into your own hands.

[Ray Ford]

...if the loss of that property would put you in a situation that would be life threating.

These are key words in Pastorp's post.  Note that such a shooting involves a threat to life.

State laws do vary, and few blanket statements can be made.  It is the case, however, that state law is subject to Supreme Court decisions.  If my memory serves me right, it was a supreme court decision that made shooting a fleeing felon illegal when there was no threat of harm present.  I think the case involved a teenager attempting to flee--a teenager with no weapon.  Now, a 35-year-0ld with a gun in his hand fleeing a robbery scene, that's a different matter.

I need to check on this, but it is in the back of my mind that using superior force to fend off an attack by someone using lesser force is, or can be, a problem.

[Ray Ford]

I spoke to "poaching" and "trespassing."  Then there is "hunting."

What constitues hunting?  How do you know that someone on your land is hunting?  My first thought is that you know he is hunting if he has the means to take game: gun, bow and arrow, spear, a pocket full of rocks and a shooter--a forked stick with a couple of strips of inner tube and a shoe tongue....  I think the modern version of this is called a "wrist rocket."  (When I was a kid, we called them a racially improper name.)  What about a guy with a hooded falcon?  What about me being on your property with my pocket .38 and my concealed carry license?  What about an elderly lady with binoculars?

How do you know a hunter is a hunter?

[pastorp]

Ray, I doubt you can really comprehend the vastness of Alaska. You can fly for hours and still be in the state of Alaska. If you placed barrow (furthest north village) on the minnasota/canada line then southeast alaska would extend into north florida and the alutichan islands down into baha california. We have about 34,000 miles of coastline about the same as the entire contenial us. With a population of about 600,000 people. And half of those live in Anchorage.

The road system in only a few thousand miles with vast areas that are roadless. Many parts of alaska can only be crossed by boat or airplane. Much of the artic is impossable to travel over except in winter by snowmachine or dogsled. In the summer you are restricted to the rivers for travel. If someone steals your shelter in winter you quite possably will die, the same with your snowmaching. Many of these places you can't walk out of because of deep snow in the mountain passes. Alaskans think differently & live by different rules than texas or oklahoma. Or most anywhere in the lower 48.

I agree what is legal is not always prudent but up here things are different............

Regards, Byron

[#59]

http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7710

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine_in_the_United_States

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/0912/2615.pdf

http://www.okhouse.gov/OkhouseMedia/ShowStory.aspx?MediaNewsID=270

[#59]

http://www.stancourtney.com/wordpress/2010/04/19/gamecam-photo/#comments